How's your Physics?

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How's your Physics?

Postby David Entwistle » Sun Mar 15, 2015 11:55 am

Dr Garvie's talk to the VVAC reminded me that I had planned to try and work out the approximate temperature of the meteorites that fell at Chelyabinsk.

I'm sure you've all seen the Chelyabinsk meteorites being collected with 'ice cores' attached. The following image is from Sky & Telescope.

Image

It'll only be a rough approximation, but I suspect a clever physicist could estimate the temperature of the fallen meteorite, given some basic approximations and estimates.

ChelyabinskMelt.jpg
ice core formation


I'll have a go, but I'm definitely not a clever physicist. If anyone else could have a stab; detailing their assumptions, workings and answer, we can compare results.

If anyone is off skiing, you know what to do....
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Re: How's your Physics?

Postby Barwellian » Mon Mar 16, 2015 2:55 pm

Hi Dave...I did an experiment just after the fall when it snowed in the UK....throwing pebbles into snow drifts around the house and leaving them for a few days....they did indeed have snow/ice pedestals when I dug them out...I posted pictures of them at the time...will try and find them....

So I don't think it had much to do with the temperature.

Graham
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Re: How's your Physics?

Postby David Entwistle » Mon Mar 16, 2015 8:01 pm

Barwellian wrote:Hi Dave...I did an experiment just after the fall when it snowed in the UK....throwing pebbles into snow drifts around the house and leaving them for a few days....they did indeed have snow/ice pedestals when I dug them out...I posted pictures of them at the time...will try and find them....

So I don't think it had much to do with the temperature.

Graham


Hi Graham,

Thanks, I'd be interesting to see the pictures.

There is a 'thing' called regelation, where a solid melts,as the result of pressure, and re-solidifies when the pressure is released. Maybe that had a part to play.

On the other hand, I don't think there's any doubt that a meteorite embedded in snow and at above zero degrees Celcius will melt its way down through the snow.

I'll see if I can work both factors out.
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Re: How's your Physics?

Postby David Entwistle » Wed Mar 18, 2015 7:58 am

It looks as though we've been beaten to it and Graham's hunch was correct....

Mysterious 'snow carrots' observed at meteorite impact sites.

Initially, researchers had speculated that the carrot shapes may have been caused by hot fragments that melted the snow during the impact, but the simulations showed that the fragments would have had ample time to cool to atmospheric temperatures before reaching the ground. Instead, the strange funnels appear to be formed mostly by mechanical forces. In the first phase of the impact, a rounded crater is formed, and the snow beneath the rock is compressed, causing its density to increase. Over the next 10 milliseconds, the denser snow gradually slows the meteorite and the walls of the funnel narrow accordingly.


The source paper is being presented at The 46th Lunar and Planetary Science Conference (2015). Snow Compaction During The Chelyabinsk Meteorite Fall, by Luther, Lukashin, Artemieva. Shuvalov and Wünnemann.

I'm not convinced by figure 2, which seems to suggests a 1kg, partially melted fragment, reaching thermal equilibrium, as it falls through the atmosphere, in under ten seconds. That seems a bit short, but I guess it does pass through a lot of atmosphere in those ten seconds. From the videos, of recovery, I'd seen, I'd thought the icy core was beneath the recovered meteorite. The paper and, to be fair, the Sky and Telescope article has the meteorite at the bottom of the icy part.
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Re: How's your Physics?

Postby Barwellian » Wed Mar 18, 2015 12:13 pm

Was much easier throwing pebbles into snow drifts and digging them out a couple of days later :D

Wish I could find the photos?

G
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Re: How's your Physics?

Postby Barwellian » Wed Mar 18, 2015 12:31 pm

Found them...just realized...I actually used a Chelly in one experiment, not just pebbles. I seem to remember that snow collapsed into the hole...I had concluded that this collapsed snow is what formed the pedestal, perhaps sticking together and refreezing in a different way to the surrounding snow...thus forming the pedestal on the top...actually a carrot is a better name as they are only pedestals when inverted....the meteorite is at the bottom of the frozen snow and turned over in pictures.
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Re: How's your Physics?

Postby Barwellian » Wed Mar 18, 2015 12:32 pm

More..
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Re: How's your Physics?

Postby Barwellian » Wed Mar 18, 2015 12:33 pm

and more...
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Re: How's your Physics?

Postby David Entwistle » Mon Apr 06, 2015 8:39 pm

Thanks Graham,
Nice carrots....

I've been working through the numbers provided by "Mexico Doug" in his 2005 posting to the Meteorite List, regarding the equilibrium temperature of meteoroids as they orbit the Sun. The problem is that space, being mostly empty, doesn't have an intrinsic temperature. The meteoroid reaches an equilibrium temperature determined by the amount of solar radiation it absorbs and the amount of longer wavelength infrared radiation it emits. This is largely determined by the 'absorptivity' and the 'emissivity' of the meteoroid. I'm not sure where Doug found the values he used - I haven't been able to find any myself. Assuming these are reasonable, I've reproduced Doug's calculations and have reproduced what I imagine Doug's chart would look like, although I can't find Doug's web site.

The chart shows that at the Earth's distance form the Sun (1 AU), prior to any interaction with the Earth, three types of meteoroids would have temperatures of the following order:

    Carbonaceous Chondrite (CC) -1 C
    Ordinary Chondrite (OC) -12 C
    Iron (FeNi) 89 C

MeteoroidTemperature.png
Meteoroid Equilibrium Temperature


I'm also reading Temperatures of Meteoroids and Meteorites, by D O Staley. I'll see how that fits in.
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